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david g@n's avatar

While I know this post is supposed to be about deception as an inherent negative in deontology, I think what lies under the surface is something different - the idea, as discussed in the other comment chain, that certain acts (cheating on someone, making Muslims eat non-halal food) are fine when the 'impacted' party doesn't know, but bad when the impacted party does know. And the question of whether the 'impacted' party is impacted at all if they don't know.

I think what Amos is reacting so strongly against isn't deception. He's reacting strongly against the fact that Muslims are being forced to violate their religious principles. The question for utilitarians is then, *why does the badness of this scenario change (get less bad) when deception is added*?

From this point of view, it seems like utilitarians actually are the ones with a weird caveat for deception, whereas deontologists treat it just like they would everything else.

That's why I think Amos is probably fine with "your hair looks beautiful today". It's not about the deception - it's about what's behind it.

On a separate note, I think the reason people lie to the murderous axe-wielder is simply because your brother being murdered is wayyy farther down the utility scale than lying about whether he's home is down the deontological moral scale. I don't think people are "at heart" utilitarians. You can't use an extreme example that's only extreme in one dimension - if you used an example extreme in the other dimension (like, your Muslim friend surprised you at work and is about to eat some non-halal food, do you tell him the truth even if there's slight negative utility from your boss possibly finding out and firing you?) I think you would get the opposite judgement from most people. Somehow you have to find something extreme in BOTH dimensions (although I tried for two minutes and couldn't come up with a great example 💀).

Overall a very interesting question and one that I've personally struggled with over the years. I definitely don't assign a deontological moral value to deception; however, I think there's something to the idea that Amos's example is important for deontology in other ways. Even if you could create a scenario where there's effectively zero chance of someone finding out, would you still cheat on a significant other/lie to Muslims about the halal-ness of their food, assuming it gives you slightly positive utility for some other reason? I'm personally not 100% satisfied with "it weighs down the conscience of the cheater" and "there's a chance the cheatee finds out" - I feel like there must be other utilitarian explanations.

Also, I think your point about sources of morality being "my mom said" and "duh" is great. (However, I think feeding Muslims non-halal food and probably also cheating on someone fall into the "duh" category which is why they're interesting!)

-written by a utilitarian

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Amos Wollen's avatar

I’m not sure I understand the argument here — it seemed a bit like this:

Ari: utilitarianism has a lot going for it, in that it says the right supervenes on the good, and the good is definitely important!

Amos: ok, here is a case where — assuming we understand the good in terms of felt experiences — the right seems not to supervene on the good.

Ari: it’s a little puzzling why the right wouldn’t supervene on the good — the good matters! Let’s consider a bad objection to utilitarianism which you reject to see whether deontologists have any good story about why, in this case, the right wouldn’t supervene on the good… oop, look, that story doesn’t work!

Amos: 😦

Ari: sometimes, people intuit that someone is being wronged/doing wrong/being harmed because — even though the person doing it feels happy doing it — there are facts that I know which he doesn’t that affect how the case seems to me morally (for example, unwitting incest.)

Amos: right, these are the anti-hedonist intuitions (or anti-consequentialist intuitions, if we’re set on being hedonists about the good), that I take to be prima facie counter-examples to classical utilitarianism.

Ari: ok, but let’s analyse *why* you have those intuitions. You have those intuitions because of social norms that aren’t reliably tethered to the moral facts.

Amos: ok, why think I have these intuitions because of social norms that aren’t reliably tethered to the moral facts? Why not think the same about the intuition that I shouldn’t randomly yell at small children and make them cry?

Ari: you have an Oedipus Complex. You are revising utilitarianism to fit your moral intuitions about a case.

Amos: why not think the utilitarian is revising deontology, or whatever the correct moral theory is?

Ari: you have an Oedipus complex!

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